Hmmm.

[vr_trakowski]

If you read Löyli, would you be willing to give me an opinion on a possibly touchy issue? 


It has been brought to my attention that the scenario I created in Löyli could be considered sexual assault. 

I am not in possession of details, so I'm not sure to which part the objection refers--Tony hugging Pepper during their argument, or the encounter afterwards.  It could be both, I suppose, though I thought I was making it clear that Pepper was entirely willing for at least the latter part. 

In my head, Tony's hug, while unwelcome, isn't sexual in nature; it's a product of his epiphany, and he doesn't let her go at first because he's too caught up in that to pay attention to her anger.  But I may not have made that clear enough.  It could also be that some definitions of sexual assault are more stringent than mine. 

Opinions?  I'd really like to know what you think; you are, after all, the people for whom these stories are written.  Did I go too far?  Did I break character?  Am I doing the characters, or the fandom, a disservice? 

Thank you. 

ETA: Wow.  I wasn't anticipating quite this response, but I'm glad to see it!  Thank you all for your honesty, and for your courtesy.  And if you came from somewhere outside the fandom, welcome, feel free to join in. 

I fully intend to respond to the new replies, but if I don't get some sleep I'm going to start hallucinating, so I'll be back tomorrow.  Please, carry on meanwhile if you are so moved; just stay courteous. 

Comments

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought. It's an interesting dilemma, to resolve that tension, esp. when we really know so little of Pepper. Honestly, though, I don't know where I get some of these. 'Cept for you suggesting it. :P

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

heheh....just call me queen of vindictive plot bunnies...

In truth I've thought about it a bit over the last few minutes and I think I know why to me this story didn't stike me as being about assault - or at least not the kind that would squick me out. Tony's reaction when he hugged Pepper was emotional yes...but not meant to injure or dominate because he thought he was better than Pepper. The physicality was reactionary and on my reading a little desperate and a little relieved..like he finally figured out what he couldn't make sense of before. Rape stories to me are not about CONNECTION, they're about power - causing injury, making something less, destroying something. Tony wasn't doing any of the above, and Pepper by her reaction knew that. It wasn't him she feared but her own reactions by my reading...

[chauchi.livejournal.com]

Since we seem to be sharing a characterization brain ATM, I'll just chime in with a 'ditto, that.' ;p

She was pushing him away because she was fighting the bond between them. Once she realized there was no longer a reason to keep up the wall between them, it crashed down quick and since they were both very much on edge, the sex came out that way - which isn't something I find out of character, actually. It might not have been pretty, but it was very real. I never felt like there was a moment where one would push forward without the other.

Rape and sexual assault is indeed an ugly power trip and a connotation that I simply didn't get when I read the story. *shrugs*

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

Us tending to 'be on the same page' is generally a good thing, I agree...it certainly helped the next part of Negotiations go quickly...

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

I kind of saw it as Pepper being afraid of the aftermath, until she realized that the rules had changed. Fear can be a habit.

So when do we get to READ?? :D

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

since I am now esentially stuck on bedrest with nothing to do but make revisions hopefully soon...

[chauchi.livejournal.com]

And since some bitch is maliciously hording the next part... Oh wait, that would be meeeeeeeee! Ha.

*snickers and runs away*

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

-looks at Chauchi's retreating form, sighs deeply and pulls out a large butterfly net before following-

"Soon. If you'll excuse me." :)

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

*snerk* Carry on, kids...carry on...

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

I probably shouldn't leap in until I write my own response, but I have to disagree with a few points here before I forget them.

1)The problem for me wasn't Tony's intent, because we didn't know Tony's intent - the scene of the "hug" was from Pepper's POV. As it read from her POV, he grabbed her forcefully out of nowhere, without her consent, and then didn't back off until she physically hurt him. And even then, he continues to crowd her. In the text, he "panics" her. He sounds "utterly insane." This isn't a welcome contact, in any way, and it's not written as such, regardless of her other feelings for him. Rape and assault and unwanted sexual advances don't just come from the creepy stranger on the street, they can be from people we trust, even guys we're attracted to.

2. Yes, rape is about power, but also rape is about control. It doesn't have to be violent, there don't need to be injuries, especially if it's between two people who know each other, who already have a relationship of some sort. It's actually very insidious to claim that rape necessarily involves violence, because many many women have been told they were not raped because they were not physically harmed.

It can be coercive. In this situation, Tony is trying to control Pepper. I'll try to address this when I straighten out my thoughts, later, but the entire scene involves Tony trying to control Pepper. He's got her locked in where she can't leave, and holds this over her. He keeps making physical advances to control her even after she tells him to stop and back off. When she finally does turn the tables and take Jarvis under her control so that she can leave if she wishes, and not when he desires, he calls her a bitch.

Is this not destructive to their relationship? Is this not making it less? That's what I get out of it.

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

Please note: I wrote, posted then deleted two replies to this post earlier tonight...mainly because I found myself unable to phrase my thoughts to my satisfaction (blame it on pain meds and the normal sleep deprivation that comes with a newborn...) If this causes confusion I apologize...

-yawns-

-drags self off to bed-

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

I hope you slept well! And I'll be glad to see what you have to say when you get back.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you deleted them, they were interesting and I would have liked to discuss them with you.

get some sleep.

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

Isn't that always the way it goes...? ;-P

Because seriously - my best college term papers/poetry were NEVER the one I spent weeks on...EVER, no matter what. They were the ones that leaked out of my brain when I was so sleep deprived I was reduced to autopilot...I still can't believe I came up with half the stuff I did. But I must have because my cat can't reach the keyboard and doesn't have opposable thumbs.

That stated I decided last night that I am actually trying to avoid super-high level discussion in the next few weeks. Between the baby and the post delivery hormone shift it's just too exhausting to organize my thoughts, and I take things too personally. That's especially true online when you can't see your conversents face or pick up cues from tone, etc...

Of course I am also limiting my exposure to cable news for similar reasons... Politics makes me grumpy already, and Kaia doesn't need a Mama who yells at a nonresponsive TV. :-)

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

Makes sense. Have a relaxing time with the baby.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree with you about the motivations for rape, yes. But I have trouble believing that Tony would do anything more than he did if Pepper wasn't at the very least participating. He didn't stop hugging her immediately because he was too distracted to hear her at once--not because he wanted to deny her choice. I meant his "Not on your life" to be a response to the idea of letting her leave him entirely, but again, I may have failed to get the idea across.

ETA: As I said below, Tony's not the only one with power here. Pepper demonstrates hers by switching control of Jarvis, and if she wanted to shut Tony down completely, she could.

As for the "bitch"--well, they are fighting, she could just have easily called him an ass. I did hesitate over that word in particular, but I wanted the Abyss line in there; maybe I should have skipped it.

Perhaps the real question is not so much is this in or out of character; maybe it's whether I should have written this in the first place.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

But I have trouble believing that Tony would do anything more than he did if Pepper wasn't at the very least participating. He didn't stop hugging her immediately because he was too distracted to hear her at once--not because he wanted to deny her choice.

My point has nothing to do with Tony's intent, or what Tony would actually do here. Whether we think Tony Stark, the character, would rape/pressure/whatever Pepper is irrelevant in a sense. I'm critiquing a piece of fanfiction. It must stand on its merits as writing, not on the interpretation of the character we see in the movie.

No, I don't think Tony Stark from the movie would do this. I think it's out of character. Not only do I think it's out of character, I think the way it's written reads as an attempted assault. That's my point.

The way it's written is important: it's from Pepper's POV, as I stated. She doesn't know Tony's intent. All she knows is that he's acting crazy and grabs her, the way it's written she's pretty much forced up against the wall of a space she can't leave, with an erection pressed against her that she didn't ask for. What about this doesn't read as unwanted sexual attention at the very, very least?

The excuses/explanations that you and 4Persephone have both given here: reading Tony's mind, interpreting what you believe Tony's motivation was, come across, forgive me for saying so so bluntly, exactly like the apologies people give for accused rapists. He would never do that kind of thing. That's not what he meant. It's all a misunderstanding.

The scene is from Pepper's POV. I'll break it down more closely later when I get a chance, pointing out why I think this reads as assault.

I'm not saying that Pepper doesn't later consent, or that the sex scene is rape, or that the sex wasn't consentual. My critique is with this scene, from where he grabs her to where he calls her a bitch. Regardless of what happens next, it reads exactly like an attempted rape.

Just because Pepper thwarted this, turned the tables on him, doesn't negate the actions of the scene.

If you escaped unwanted sexual attention, if you get away from someone who is trying to force a sexual encounter you don't want and didn't ask for (regardless of whether you're attracted to that person or not) that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Even if you later decide to sleep with that person, it doesn't erase what happened.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

I should probably also point out here, though I'm sure I'll repeat it later: Pepper was not, in fact, a willing participant in that scene, the way it was written. Yes, she's a willing participant in sex, later; but in this scene she's the very opposite.

She tried everything in her power(barring kneeing him in the groin, which she'd considered), the way you've written it, to get away from him. Despite her attraction to him, despite her desire, the way it's written she does not welcome the sexual advance at that time. And he does not accept this. This right there is the definition of assault, in my eyes. This kind of thing usually leads to rape, or at the very least coerced sex that the woman doesn't want, if she can't get him to stop. Pepper gets him to stop before that happens. Does this make him a great guy, make it okay?

He didn't hear her? What kind of decent man would continue to force himself physically on a woman who has told him "Back off" and pulled his hair to get him to stop? Not the Tony Stark I saw in the movie, but the man in this story did.

Re: the name calling. Yeah, people call each other names during arguments. That's not the problem. The problem is context. Pepper calling Tony an ass is a)deserved b)not a loaded insult. Tony calling Pepper a bitch for turning the tables on what reads as an attempt to get her to have sex with him when she doesn't want to reads completely different. It's the context. He calls her a bitch directly after she has proven that she can get away from his unwanted advances should she so choose.

Power: look, saying that Tony has less power than Pepper in this scene totally misses the entire dynamic you have set up here. Even if she gains control over Jarvis, Tony's proven that he can physically overpower her, that he will totally disregard her wishes. And splash_the_cat tried to detail how he has power over her in other senses, even after she has become CEO. The fact that she manages to turn the tables on him does not equal her having more power than him.

ETA: Sorry, realized that it wasn't you saying Pepper had more power than Tony, but someone in another comment. I think you're saying she has equal power? I'd probably disagree with that, too, given the way it's written; I'd also say that her power in a way is also irrelevent since I'm critiquing Tony's behavior. Whether or not she has the power to fight back doesn't actually negate how I'd read Tony's actions, at all. This can be a dangerous slippery slope, in a way: saying that it's not rape/assault if the woman manages to fight back and turn the tables on her attacker is kind of the end result of that line of argument./ETA

I don't know whether or not you should have written it in the first place. I'm not trying to censure you, or whatever; I'm just pointing out how a particular scene read to me and how it replicates behavior I would in real life probably label attempted sexual assault.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

First off, let me apologize for not getting back to you sooner; I was out all day. Bad planning on my part.

I'm critiquing a piece of fanfiction. It must stand on its merits as writing, not on the interpretation of the character we see in the movie. I think I have to disagree with you here. Fanfiction is by nature dependent on the characters on which it's based; it springs from them. If the characters aren't in character, it's just a story with familiar names (but that's a badfic rant for another time). True, we (or at least I try to) expand or extrapolate, given that we write situations one doesn't see on screen, but I don't think the two can be separated. Now, I may have failed in that area, or gone down a path you don't see as viable for them; that's not uncommon in fanfic.

More below, but I wanted to bring this up here. :)