Hmmm.

[vr_trakowski]

If you read Löyli, would you be willing to give me an opinion on a possibly touchy issue? 


It has been brought to my attention that the scenario I created in Löyli could be considered sexual assault. 

I am not in possession of details, so I'm not sure to which part the objection refers--Tony hugging Pepper during their argument, or the encounter afterwards.  It could be both, I suppose, though I thought I was making it clear that Pepper was entirely willing for at least the latter part. 

In my head, Tony's hug, while unwelcome, isn't sexual in nature; it's a product of his epiphany, and he doesn't let her go at first because he's too caught up in that to pay attention to her anger.  But I may not have made that clear enough.  It could also be that some definitions of sexual assault are more stringent than mine. 

Opinions?  I'd really like to know what you think; you are, after all, the people for whom these stories are written.  Did I go too far?  Did I break character?  Am I doing the characters, or the fandom, a disservice? 

Thank you. 

ETA: Wow.  I wasn't anticipating quite this response, but I'm glad to see it!  Thank you all for your honesty, and for your courtesy.  And if you came from somewhere outside the fandom, welcome, feel free to join in. 

I fully intend to respond to the new replies, but if I don't get some sleep I'm going to start hallucinating, so I'll be back tomorrow.  Please, carry on meanwhile if you are so moved; just stay courteous. 

Comments

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

What? I didn't see anything out of character or even non-consentual in the story. They are *arguing* and even so, they're both attracted to each other and fully aware of that attraction.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

I did actually read Loyli this way. I wasn't sure how to approach it, so I didn't comment, but you've asked, and so I'm thinking hard about how to phrase it. I appreciate you bringing it up, that can't have been easy to hear.

I'll try to be more detailed after I give it some thought.

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

I had people make similar claims about Backbeat when Daisy and I first wrote it. While I do admit there was a line to toe there with Tony being that forceful...frankly it didn't feel out of character for either of them - he pushed, she pulled...they were both agressive, but she's the one who ultimately chose to kiss him rather than knee him or say STOP... Their characters aren't always happy bunny sweet and there's nothing wrong with a story that show's a sharper edge. I like this story precisely because it shows they both can make assumptions...misunderstand, push each others buttons and get pushy and angry and maybe even a little out of control...but at the same time, they can still be themselves and come through it to a functional end. :) Frankly sex is not always goey - repressed sexual tenstion can be MESSY...

And fights that lead to sex...do happen in real life.

[chauchi.livejournal.com]

It was very consensual IMO. I viewed the hug as sheer amazement at the realization they were both sitting in the same damn boat. I don't see how it could have been clearer they were *both* attracted to each other. Not to mention, technically Pepper jumped him. If anyone was assaulted, it just *might* have been Tony. ;p

Maybe someone just has a problem with... *ahem* how shall I put this? vigorous sex? *smirk* Like it's supposed to be moopy all the flippin' time? I don't think so. Heh.

It was great. Totally in character. I loved it. *nods*

Real review to come. ;)

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

That's what I hoped to get across, yes. It's interesting how different people interpret characters...

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Please do! I do want to know what you think. If you'd prefer to take it private, you can reach me at vrtrakowski at gmail dot com.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

I don't mind it being public if you don't mind. It's probably an important discussion to have. Let me know what you think.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought. It's an interesting dilemma, to resolve that tension, esp. when we really know so little of Pepper. Honestly, though, I don't know where I get some of these. 'Cept for you suggesting it. :P

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Go for it--I left this one public on purpose.

[elfling65.livejournal.com]

I didn't see anything that hinted at assault. It would have crossed the line if she had wanted him to stop and he kept going... Pepper would have made him stop if that's what she wanted. JMO though. I thoroughly enjoyed the fic, well done as usual.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Heh, I think it was a pretty mutual jumping--he did make the first physical move if not the first verbal one. But that is how I intended the hug to go. And thank you!

As for the other viewpoints, I'm sure they are valid, but I do want to understand if I can. Which is why I posted, at least in part.

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

heheh....just call me queen of vindictive plot bunnies...

In truth I've thought about it a bit over the last few minutes and I think I know why to me this story didn't stike me as being about assault - or at least not the kind that would squick me out. Tony's reaction when he hugged Pepper was emotional yes...but not meant to injure or dominate because he thought he was better than Pepper. The physicality was reactionary and on my reading a little desperate and a little relieved..like he finally figured out what he couldn't make sense of before. Rape stories to me are not about CONNECTION, they're about power - causing injury, making something less, destroying something. Tony wasn't doing any of the above, and Pepper by her reaction knew that. It wasn't him she feared but her own reactions by my reading...

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Yes, I figure she has more than a few tricks if she needs them...and without even a towel he's not exactly armored. Pun intended. Though I firmly believe he wouldn't require them.

[mingsmommy.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I wouldn't call it sexual assault but there was a moment when I was uncomfortable, but it was just an instant and I thought perhaps it was my own past that caused me to read it that way.

Though the hug was not sexual in nature, you had previously built sexual tension, plus she's in her lingerie and he is in a towel.

OTOH, I think you crystallized very well that Tony was trying to get her to listen and the sex was definitely consensual. And, no, even with the discomfort, I don't think it was out of character.


I reiterate, I don't think it's sexual assault, I don't think it's out of character, but I did have a small moment of discomfort.

But, I also thought the story was wonderful, hot, beautiful and in character.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying that, Ming; I'm grateful that you are willing to speak plainly.

Just because I don't see something doesn't mean it's not there. Which is part of the reason I wanted to ask. And I'm glad you enjoyed it as well!

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

Okay, great. I'll give my response some thought and get back to you.

[chauchi.livejournal.com]

Since we seem to be sharing a characterization brain ATM, I'll just chime in with a 'ditto, that.' ;p

She was pushing him away because she was fighting the bond between them. Once she realized there was no longer a reason to keep up the wall between them, it crashed down quick and since they were both very much on edge, the sex came out that way - which isn't something I find out of character, actually. It might not have been pretty, but it was very real. I never felt like there was a moment where one would push forward without the other.

Rape and sexual assault is indeed an ugly power trip and a connotation that I simply didn't get when I read the story. *shrugs*

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

Us tending to 'be on the same page' is generally a good thing, I agree...it certainly helped the next part of Negotiations go quickly...

[mingsmommy.livejournal.com]

The other thing to consider is everyone brings their own experience to what they read.

Just because I don't see something doesn't mean it's not there.

Well, just because someone sees something doesn't mean it is there.

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

I also read it as problematic. It wasn't one huge thing, but a number of little things that pushed it over a line for me, making a often enjoyable "trapped somewhere" cliche scenario (with some good character discussion in there) an issue: some of the word choices, that this was happening in Tony's space that he controlled, and he even made mention that he could keep her locked in as long as he wanted. Even if Pepper did counter that, the fact that Tony thought it okay to even consider keeping Pepper there if she wanted to leave came across poorly, especially as in some ways, Pepper still does work for Tony, even is she is the CEO (he still owns controlling share in the company). It's even said that he gave her the position. Plus, she had been his direct subordinate for a very long time, and that is still going to impact their interactions.

The thing is, it's not an either/or issue - it's not "it's rape or it's love, and there's nothing problematic in between." Sexual assault or sexual harassment doesn't have to be violent or graphic. It doesn't always come out of hate or anger. It plays on deeply ingrained dynamics, and someone who thinks they're joking can make someone else who feels in a subordinate position uncomfortable and trapped (we actually just had a situation where I work, between a faculty member and a staff member).

During the lead up to the sex scene, Pepper is described as upset, stunned, furious, almost panicked by Tony's behavior, clearly saying "No" , "Back off," clearly physically pushing him away, and taken all together it all just set up her capitulation and the eventual sex as uncomfortable and coercive for me, no matter that she did end up an active participant. She told Tony to back off while they were trapped together, and he didn't.

Even though we shippers are rooting for Tony and Pepper, even though we think they love each other and should be together, I do find issue with stories that gloss over or even romanticize the very real issues between them: Tony comes from a position of great privilege, and his expectations of how things work are very different than reality, and he has a great deal of power (social, financial, etc) in any position. And no matter how romantic, that is a big deal in a situation where you have an employer involved with a subordinate (the movie even addressed this in the balcony scene - Tony just did not get that making Pepper dance with him could impact her negatively, and did not get why that made her uncomfortable).

Anyway, thank you for bringing this up and opening it to public discussion. Like amonitrate said, that can't have been easy, and I really admire you for it, and I hope this made sense.

[mona-lisa303.livejournal.com]

I didn't view any part of your story as inappropriate in any way. I think both of these characters are so strong and bull headed that it's very possible they will not "see" what they feel without some sort of physical interaction. The power of touch is very strong. For example, their dance together in the movie. For me, that was the point where Pepper realized her feelings were more than friendship. I thought this story was beautifully written and true to both of their characters. I never saw Pepper as anything less than Tony's equal.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

I kind of saw it as Pepper being afraid of the aftermath, until she realized that the rules had changed. Fear can be a habit.

So when do we get to READ?? :D

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Very true! And I can't anticipate everything.

On the other hand, I think it's important to, well, think about what I do. At least on occasion. :D

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

since I am now esentially stuck on bedrest with nothing to do but make revisions hopefully soon...

[chauchi.livejournal.com]

And since some bitch is maliciously hording the next part... Oh wait, that would be meeeeeeeee! Ha.

*snickers and runs away*