Hmmm.

[vr_trakowski]

If you read Löyli, would you be willing to give me an opinion on a possibly touchy issue? 


It has been brought to my attention that the scenario I created in Löyli could be considered sexual assault. 

I am not in possession of details, so I'm not sure to which part the objection refers--Tony hugging Pepper during their argument, or the encounter afterwards.  It could be both, I suppose, though I thought I was making it clear that Pepper was entirely willing for at least the latter part. 

In my head, Tony's hug, while unwelcome, isn't sexual in nature; it's a product of his epiphany, and he doesn't let her go at first because he's too caught up in that to pay attention to her anger.  But I may not have made that clear enough.  It could also be that some definitions of sexual assault are more stringent than mine. 

Opinions?  I'd really like to know what you think; you are, after all, the people for whom these stories are written.  Did I go too far?  Did I break character?  Am I doing the characters, or the fandom, a disservice? 

Thank you. 

ETA: Wow.  I wasn't anticipating quite this response, but I'm glad to see it!  Thank you all for your honesty, and for your courtesy.  And if you came from somewhere outside the fandom, welcome, feel free to join in. 

I fully intend to respond to the new replies, but if I don't get some sleep I'm going to start hallucinating, so I'll be back tomorrow.  Please, carry on meanwhile if you are so moved; just stay courteous. 

Comments

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

What? I didn't see anything out of character or even non-consentual in the story. They are *arguing* and even so, they're both attracted to each other and fully aware of that attraction.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

That's what I hoped to get across, yes. It's interesting how different people interpret characters...

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

I did actually read Loyli this way. I wasn't sure how to approach it, so I didn't comment, but you've asked, and so I'm thinking hard about how to phrase it. I appreciate you bringing it up, that can't have been easy to hear.

I'll try to be more detailed after I give it some thought.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Please do! I do want to know what you think. If you'd prefer to take it private, you can reach me at vrtrakowski at gmail dot com.

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

I had people make similar claims about Backbeat when Daisy and I first wrote it. While I do admit there was a line to toe there with Tony being that forceful...frankly it didn't feel out of character for either of them - he pushed, she pulled...they were both agressive, but she's the one who ultimately chose to kiss him rather than knee him or say STOP... Their characters aren't always happy bunny sweet and there's nothing wrong with a story that show's a sharper edge. I like this story precisely because it shows they both can make assumptions...misunderstand, push each others buttons and get pushy and angry and maybe even a little out of control...but at the same time, they can still be themselves and come through it to a functional end. :) Frankly sex is not always goey - repressed sexual tenstion can be MESSY...

And fights that lead to sex...do happen in real life.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought. It's an interesting dilemma, to resolve that tension, esp. when we really know so little of Pepper. Honestly, though, I don't know where I get some of these. 'Cept for you suggesting it. :P

[chauchi.livejournal.com]

It was very consensual IMO. I viewed the hug as sheer amazement at the realization they were both sitting in the same damn boat. I don't see how it could have been clearer they were *both* attracted to each other. Not to mention, technically Pepper jumped him. If anyone was assaulted, it just *might* have been Tony. ;p

Maybe someone just has a problem with... *ahem* how shall I put this? vigorous sex? *smirk* Like it's supposed to be moopy all the flippin' time? I don't think so. Heh.

It was great. Totally in character. I loved it. *nods*

Real review to come. ;)

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Heh, I think it was a pretty mutual jumping--he did make the first physical move if not the first verbal one. But that is how I intended the hug to go. And thank you!

As for the other viewpoints, I'm sure they are valid, but I do want to understand if I can. Which is why I posted, at least in part.

[oddmonster.livejournal.com]

Wait a minute, stop. I have a problem here. Your statement: Maybe someone just has a problem with... *ahem* how shall I put this? vigorous sex? *smirk* Like it's supposed to be moopy all the flippin' time? I don't think so.

is problematic for me.

I see three issues:

1. If you object to the sexual set-up in this story, you object to aggressive sex, regardless of who initiates it.

2. Let's keep the parameters of the sex scene itself separate from the reactions of the readers. I'm seeing issues with the consent and power issues in the scene as being both separate from and entwined with the reader's response to the text.

3. What I'm hearing from this comment is that if the reader objects to a sexual scene with dubious consent, you, the commenter, are saying that the reader is uncomfortable with vigorous, aggressive sex. Now, considering that all the commenters objecting are women, you're disempowering women as a whole. Are you meaning to imply that women can't initiate and/or enjoy aggressive sex if they don't enjoy this vignette?

I am curious. Am I reading your comment incorrectly?

Btw, thank you for this comment. This is an invigorating and fascinating discussion! :)

[elfling65.livejournal.com]

I didn't see anything that hinted at assault. It would have crossed the line if she had wanted him to stop and he kept going... Pepper would have made him stop if that's what she wanted. JMO though. I thoroughly enjoyed the fic, well done as usual.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Yes, I figure she has more than a few tricks if she needs them...and without even a towel he's not exactly armored. Pun intended. Though I firmly believe he wouldn't require them.

[mingsmommy.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I wouldn't call it sexual assault but there was a moment when I was uncomfortable, but it was just an instant and I thought perhaps it was my own past that caused me to read it that way.

Though the hug was not sexual in nature, you had previously built sexual tension, plus she's in her lingerie and he is in a towel.

OTOH, I think you crystallized very well that Tony was trying to get her to listen and the sex was definitely consensual. And, no, even with the discomfort, I don't think it was out of character.


I reiterate, I don't think it's sexual assault, I don't think it's out of character, but I did have a small moment of discomfort.

But, I also thought the story was wonderful, hot, beautiful and in character.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying that, Ming; I'm grateful that you are willing to speak plainly.

Just because I don't see something doesn't mean it's not there. Which is part of the reason I wanted to ask. And I'm glad you enjoyed it as well!

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

I also read it as problematic. It wasn't one huge thing, but a number of little things that pushed it over a line for me, making a often enjoyable "trapped somewhere" cliche scenario (with some good character discussion in there) an issue: some of the word choices, that this was happening in Tony's space that he controlled, and he even made mention that he could keep her locked in as long as he wanted. Even if Pepper did counter that, the fact that Tony thought it okay to even consider keeping Pepper there if she wanted to leave came across poorly, especially as in some ways, Pepper still does work for Tony, even is she is the CEO (he still owns controlling share in the company). It's even said that he gave her the position. Plus, she had been his direct subordinate for a very long time, and that is still going to impact their interactions.

The thing is, it's not an either/or issue - it's not "it's rape or it's love, and there's nothing problematic in between." Sexual assault or sexual harassment doesn't have to be violent or graphic. It doesn't always come out of hate or anger. It plays on deeply ingrained dynamics, and someone who thinks they're joking can make someone else who feels in a subordinate position uncomfortable and trapped (we actually just had a situation where I work, between a faculty member and a staff member).

During the lead up to the sex scene, Pepper is described as upset, stunned, furious, almost panicked by Tony's behavior, clearly saying "No" , "Back off," clearly physically pushing him away, and taken all together it all just set up her capitulation and the eventual sex as uncomfortable and coercive for me, no matter that she did end up an active participant. She told Tony to back off while they were trapped together, and he didn't.

Even though we shippers are rooting for Tony and Pepper, even though we think they love each other and should be together, I do find issue with stories that gloss over or even romanticize the very real issues between them: Tony comes from a position of great privilege, and his expectations of how things work are very different than reality, and he has a great deal of power (social, financial, etc) in any position. And no matter how romantic, that is a big deal in a situation where you have an employer involved with a subordinate (the movie even addressed this in the balcony scene - Tony just did not get that making Pepper dance with him could impact her negatively, and did not get why that made her uncomfortable).

Anyway, thank you for bringing this up and opening it to public discussion. Like amonitrate said, that can't have been easy, and I really admire you for it, and I hope this made sense.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks for being honest and thorough! I do appreciate it.

I see what you're saying (if you'll forgive the hackneyed phrase), and you make excellent points. Tony DOES have a lot of power, still, and he's used to wielding it. But, I would contend, Pepper has power too in this situation--demonstrably.

In addition, in this specific situation, they're arguing. What either of them might say in the heat of anger doesn't necessarily translate into action. But that may not come across clearly, in which case it's a failure on my part.

How much power DOES Pepper have, now that they're no longer in a direct employer-employee relationship? Is public perception as big a factor?

Perhaps we just perceive them differently.

[mona-lisa303.livejournal.com]

I didn't view any part of your story as inappropriate in any way. I think both of these characters are so strong and bull headed that it's very possible they will not "see" what they feel without some sort of physical interaction. The power of touch is very strong. For example, their dance together in the movie. For me, that was the point where Pepper realized her feelings were more than friendship. I thought this story was beautifully written and true to both of their characters. I never saw Pepper as anything less than Tony's equal.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Tony does seem to be a very tactile person. Of course, one has to wonder why... :D

Thanks! I think touch is a very effective element in any relationship--and that they do demonstrate that.

[atrata.livejournal.com]

Hi there. A friend sent me to this post, so I went and read the story. I hope you don't mind.

I, too, read it as harassment. Not the sex itself, but what led up to it: Pepper is uncomfortable. Tony's advances are unwelcome. She tells him to stop. He does not. He's mostly naked and clearly aroused; she's in her slip. She's in a situation where she is unable go anywhere. Ergo, harassment.

It doesn't matter what their underlying feelings are. It doesn't matter that the end result is happily ever after. What matters is that in the moment, Pepper tells him to stop and he doesn't. Tony doesn't know what's going on in her head; all he knows is that he wants something, she says no, and he does it anyway. That's it. Done. In the real world, it's completely unacceptable. In fiction, because we know these characters and can see both POVs and are rooting for those crazy kids to work it out, it can be difficult to see. It's there, though.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Hello, welcome! And sorry for the delay in answering; when I can't see the keyboard clearly any more it's time to sleep. *grin*

I can agree with your definition in general. I'm not sure how closely it applies in this particular situation (in my head, anyway) given these characters and how they know each other, and the sheer complexity of human relationships. But I can also accept the viewpoint.

If the situation were reversed, emotionally, would you consider it harassment? Same set-up, Pepper hugging Tony and him trying to make her stop? I'm not trying to be confrontational; I am genuinely curious, I promise.

[aspidites.livejournal.com]

I really liked the story, and didn't read it as verging on sexual assault, because you wrote from both Tony and Pepper's POVs. If the story had been told from, say, Jarvis' POV (I just know he's got "eyes" everywhere!), it would have read a lot differently, as it might for people who didn't understand the characters.

While I'm sure you don't want to upset any of your readers accidentally, I would hate to see you start second-guessing yourself on storylines, or self-censoring. I think it would adversely impact your stories, not to mention make you crazy. JMO, and I could be wrong :-)

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

I agree with aspidites on this one...while it is wonderful to grow as a writer and improve your craft it's also important to remember that with every story you tell you expand your overall repetoire and that sometimes the price of that is things go in directions you or your audience may not be expecting. You may have intended to tell one story and told some peopel another, but what you intended still has intrinsic meaning...

That said, I assume you are writing fanfiction for fun not money, and your readers are sampling your craft for their amusement, not shelling out cash for something at the bookstore. You write as best you can about things that move you and assume that like an open writers group your audience will hopefully love you for your good, and not hold any perceived slip ups against you long. :) I don't know about you, but I love the fanfic universe in part because I can get feedback that helps me grow as an author, but at the same time, I know that a fair number of people get real enjoyment of my 'growth in progress.'

Part I

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

This became an analysis of the story because I wanted to be able to point out the red flags for me in the writing, since you seem interested. It's hard to consider, I imagine, because what was in your head as the author was so far from that, and that's why I wrote so much, trying to explain how the language you used, the set up, all fed into a really disturbing dynamic that was not explored as disturbing but as romantic, and how this is colored by the way society approaches rape.


The story starts from Tony's POV. We get Tony's desire for Pepper, his attraction to her. The argument as it's set up feels organic, yeah, there'd be friction there, growing pains at Pepper taking over as CEO.

Then an earthquake interrupts their argument.

Tony smirked up at her halfheartedly. "Potts, I'm hurt, you don't want to snuggle?"

Her glance could have dried out a martini. "Can we just get out of here?"

This is the first time Tony tries to interact sexually with Pepper. She turns him down flatly. From his perspective, she's clearly not interested. She immediately attempts to leave, only to find out they're trapped. Everything indicates she's not the least bit interested in him sexually.

Here's a small example of the power imbalance mentioned by splash the cat, at least as perceived by Tony:

Oops, yeah. He raised a brow. "Iron Man Locked in Love Sauna with Lovely Ex-Assistant, yes, I see your point.

Not "Iron Man Locked in Love Sauna with Lovely CEO." So even in Tony's thoughts, he and Pepper aren't equal. He's the hero, she's the ex-subordinate. This would have been an interesting dynamic to explore, maybe, but here it just indicates to me that he's not considering her an equal, and given what follows later it takes on a sinister tone.

The exchange continues. They're trapped at least for a few hours in the heat. Tony offers to turn it off, but the light would be shut off too. Pepper says she prefers the lights on.

Tony admires her. Everything so far has been about Tony's desire for Pepper. Then comes this exchange:

"Turn around," Pepper said abruptly, and Tony blinked, lowering the bottle from his lips. Pepper circled one finger in the air. "I want to take off my stockings."

He gave her a slow, salacious grin. "I definitely approve of this trend, Potts, but do you really trust me not to peek?"

Her expression was obdurate. "Turn, or I blindfold you with a towel."

"Kinky, I like it." But Tony obediently shuffled around on the bench until he was mostly facing the wall. "There. Can't see a thing."

Pepper is hot. She wishes to take off some clothing so she can be comfortable while waiting. She does not do this out of any kind of sexual come on. She in fact asks Tony to turn around. He makes a sexual remark to her about it and she does not flirt back. "Her expression was obdurate." It's not coy, it's not in the least interested in his come on. This time, Tony complies with her request. Or pretends to, because apparently her wishes about the matter carry no weight.

He gave her a few seconds, and then with no qualm at all, he peeked.

She had her back to him, one foot propped up on the bench across the way, her spine bent as she reached under the hem of her dress and rolled her stocking down. The translucent fabric peeled easily away from her leg, and she slipped the neat ring of it off her toes and switched feet. It was an efficient striptease, this stolen sensuality, and Tony swallowed hard as Pepper bent lower to finish the job.

Tony and Pepper are not in a relationship at this point. Pepper has shown Tony no interest beyond professional in the scene. And yet when she requests that he turn around so she can take off her stockings, he betrays that request and peeks. To him it's a "striptease," a "stolen sensuality" but to her she's just taking off her stockings. This is the beginning of violating her boundaries, right there. It's all about what's good for Tony, without any thought about what Pepper wants. This is a dangerous slippery slope, because the implications are that her consent or lack of consent is meaningless. She did not consent to him watching her undress - the opposite in fact. But that doesn't matter to him, and it's implied it shouldn't matter to the reader, either.

Part II

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

Now we change to Pepper's POV.

He was looking. Pepper knew he was, as surely as she knew her own name, but she didn't call him on it. There was no point; he'd only laugh, and anyway she wasn't actually revealing anything Tony hadn't seen before. She'd made him look away in order to keep some control of the situation--and because she'd never hear the end of it if she didn't.

So Pepper's aware that he's gone against her express request to not stare at her while she takes off her stockings, and she doesn't call him on it. Why? Not because she welcomes the attention, but because "there was no point." Because "she'd never hear the end of it." So what kind of power does Pepper have? Not the power to even take off her stockings in peace. She comes off here as worn down, passive. She has no control over the situation, not really, and knows it. And he rubs it in, constantly, by going against her express wishes. If this was in real life, I'd call this relationship abusive and manipulative; not healthy or romantic at all. Which -- those stories can be good, no lie; but the problem is that doesn't appear to be the intent of this story; this story appears to say that Tony's behavior is acceptable and even romantic.

She'd made him look away in order to keep control of the situation and yet she has no control at all, because he looks anyway.

Here's where the mixed messages start:

He straightened on the bench, looking as innocent as possible, and Pepper kept her smile to herself, taking a seat on the bench opposite him and reaching for her bottle of water.

This contradicts what has gone before, but it's not explained. Why is she smiling? Before she comes off as just barely tolerating his behavior because she feels there's no point in protesting.

“I'm locked in a small space with a beautiful woman, and all she wants to do is talk business. Just my luck.”

Tony tries again, gives her an in to a sexual encounter. She ignores it and continues on trying to talk business. At one point Pepper does physically reach out to him, but the context is comforting his angst. In her narration, there is nothing sexual about it.

And here's another bit of the power imbalance, from Pepper's perspective: She still had to deal with Tony as well, and they hadn't yet found a balance as equals, as it were.

Which again, makes sense given the plot. And would be interesting to explore. But again, given the nature of the encounter to follow, takes on a completely different meaning.

Pepper takes a look at him, her desire for him is made plain. But she moves on in her thoughts back to the business. So does Tony. Again, Pepper chooses against acting on any sexual thoughts.

Pepper gets uncomfortably soggy from the heat.

Pepper stood, and reached back for the zipper of her dress. “I'm too hot. And I swear to you, Tony Stark, if you so much as think about this once we get out of here, I will make your life a living hell whether I'm your assistant or not.” She pulled the zipper down in two quick motions.

She repeats her disinterest in making this a sexual encounter, even goes as far as to express her displeasure that he'd think about her sexually afterwards. She does not try to take off her dress in a seductive manner; the opposite. She merely wants to be less hot and not be harassed about it.

“Can I think about it now?” Tony asked, voice a little constricted. Pepper ignored him.

Again, she rejects his attempt to sexualize the moment. Her thoughts are not about how the moment is romantic or sexually charged, but about how she doesn't want to get a rash.

She's aware of his sexual desire. She's aware of her desire for him. She chooses not to act on it. Again.

Part III

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

We change back to Tony's POV.

It really wasn't fair.

Tony forced himself to relax, and kept his breathing slow, lest Pepper reach across the little space between them and relieve him of dignity or testicles. But it was, to pardon the pun, hard.

So, back in Tony's head, it's not fair that Pepper doesn't return his sexual advances, that he's stuck in a room with her, scantily clad, with a burgeoning erection.

Tony even realizes Pepper's lack of interest in acting on his sexual come on consciously:

he didn't think visible proof of his lust would go over too well. Even sweaty and half-dressed, Pepper was as cool and untouchable as ever...

Now, I understand the impulse of the following bit:

And under the pang was a bit of anger, too. She didn't have to walk away so easily.

And again, that's an interesting and believable dynamic. But again, in the context of what happens next, it takes on a creepy tone. Pepper is untouchable. Pepper tried to walk away from him. This makes him angry. A shade of stalker, there, combined with the jealous thought that Pepper might be on birth control because she's sleeping with other men.

while Tony wasn't about to force himself on her, he wasn't sure he could keep his mouth shut long enough. Desperate, he cast around for some topic of conversation that would keep him from making the sort of comment that would get him half-killed.

So Tony's arousal is reaching the desperation point. He knows it's not welcome. He tell himself he's not about to force himself on her, but that's in fact what he does in the story, whether that was the author's intention or not. Given that, what might have come off as innocent thoughts really stand out, take on the stalker tinge.

They continue to talk business. Tension enters the discussion again, re: Rhodey. The argument escalates.

Pepper went white. “Clearly Ms. Romanoff's not doing an adequate job,” she retorted. “What's wrong, did you wear her out last night?”

That stunned him, because Pepper was never catty. “Wouldn't you like to know.” The argument was turning him on, Tony realized with dismay; Pepper in a rage was always arousing, and the adrenaline rush of having her mad at him wasn't helping.

Well, yes. Pepper never is catty, so this bit rings false to me, but that's a different discussion, and more about character interpretation. We could argue about whether or not this bit is in character, what Pepper's intentions were, whether or not she's jealous, but to me it actually doesn't matter. For me the key is "Pepper in a rage was always arousing."

Especially given this next bit:

After all his effort, all his restraint, all the blood and loneliness and doubt, that was too much. “I thought you trusted me, Pepper.” Tony struggled with his hormones, caught between hurt and anger and the desire to just pin her down on the bench and end the fight his way.

So. Ending the argument his way involves pinning her down on the bench and having his way with her. Right? Even though up to this point, from Tony's perspective, she has exhibited not one bit of interest in him sexually. She has, in fact, continually turned him down throughout the story. As well as before the story. So does her jealousy of Natasha make it okay for him to force himself on her physically? That's how it reads.

Part IV

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

Here's the heart of the matter. I went into detail on what led up to this part because I think the first half of the story both influences how this half reads, and also gains meaning that it wouldn't otherwise have from what happens next.


We switch back to Pepper's POV. She's aware of his arousal, even pleased by her effect on him, but she's too angry to be interested in acting on it.

Tony accuses her of being jealous. Perhaps she is. Whether or not she is, to me, is completely irrelevant to what follows:

He started to laugh, the crazy peal that made him sound utterly insane. Shard-sharp hurt mixed with her anger, and Pepper stood, not sure whether she was going to hit Tony or the wall, but before she could decide she was enveloped in a bruising embrace. He was damp with sweat, but then so was she, and Pepper stood stunned for an instant before she braced her hands on his shoulders and shoved.

It had absolutely no effect; her palms skidded off his slick skin. Tony was still laughing; she was squeezed full-length against him, and yes indeed, there was no hiding his arousal. It pressed into her stomach almost as hard as his arc implant pressed into her chest.

So far, Pepper has not made one sexually charged move towards him. She's admitted her own attraction to herself (not to Tony, this is key) and decided against acting on it. Tony, on the other hand, had considered pinning her down and finishing the argument his way, not at all taking her wishes into account.

Here's the key words in this passage that raised the red flags for me, starting to change the tone of the encounter into something more sinister than an argument:

"crazy peal"
"utterly insane"
"before she could decide"
"bruising embrace"
"stunned"
"shoved"
"no effect"

So. This is what I believe people in the discussion are calling a hug. In no way did I interpret this passage as anything near a hug. We've got Tony grabbing her in a "bruising embrace" out of no where, in the middle of an argument where they're both angry. Pepper tries to shove him off. Which has "absolutely no effect." She's "squeezed full length against him" and she can feel his erection. His arc reactor is pressed into her chest.

Pepper's helplessness in the encounter is emphasized at first. His ability to physically overpower her:

“Tony--” Pepper struggled, furious and almost panicked by his hard hug. She wasn't quite angry enough to bring up a knee, but she was starting to consider biting him. The musky smell of him, warm and male, was winding into her lungs and making her dizzy.

“No, no.” His laughter-laced voice came from behind her right ear; his hair was soft against her cheek, and Pepper felt her muscles weaken, though she didn't stop twisting. “We are so fucked up.”

“Let go of me!” Pepper grabbed a handful of hair and yanked, and he yelped.

The embrace loosened enough for her to pull back, but Tony didn't release her. His grin and his eyes were both wide, as shaken as she felt. “Not on your life, Potts.”


Pepper is not expressing any interest in physical contact -- let alone sexual contact -- with Tony here, despite her attraction. In fact, the opposite. She's trying to get away from him.

Here's the key words in this passage:

"struggled"
"furious"
"almost panicked"
"muscles weaken"

Pepper fights his contact. She tells him to let go. She physically hurts him to get him to stop. He doesn't let go, in fact. And he says "Not on your life." All of this reads exactly like a forced sexual encounter. It reads like attempted assault, at the very least. It has all the elements: unasked for sexual contact, repeated refusal to back off and let go when asked, the need for physical violence to get the attacking party to back off.

I don't buy that the "hug" was not sexual: given Tony's erection, given the fact that it was hurting Pepper, given his previous thought about pinning her down and having his way with her.

Now, I understand your intent re:his statement about not letting her go was in a metaphorical sense - trying to tell her he didn't fire her, that he wants her in his life. However, as read in the context of the passage, it's more abusive that that. He's not going to let her go, physically, even after she resorts to pulling his hair.

Part V

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

He was infuriating. She wanted to stamp her feet and throw a tantrum. Instead Pepper set her teeth and shoved again. “Back off.”

Sobering a little, he did, letting his arms fall and stepping away. His towel fell too, but he didn't even seem to notice. “Pepper. Listen to me.”

Another troubling aspect, which probably deserves a separate response. Here, Pepper is infantilized: "she wants to stomp her feet and throw a tantrum."

Pepper shoves him again and tells him to back off. He does, temporarily, and his towel falls away, leaving him presumably naked and aroused. Pepper puts distance between them, or tries to. She expresses her disinterest in even listening to him at that point.

“No.” Pepper stumbled backwards, knowing she sounded petulant but too upset to care. Part of her wanted to snatch him close again, towel or no towel, her treacherous body trying to overwhelm her good sense.

“Yes.” Tony paced her, hands held out to his sides but still managing to crowd her, until the bench hit the back of her knees and she had to stop.

She knows she sounds petulant? Again, emphasizing that somehow her reaction to unwanted contact, to Tony not respecting her expressed boundaries, is childish? Her conflicting feelings resurface: yeah, she desires him, but she's choosing not to act on it. This is the key to me, because what does Tony do next? He ignores her wishes again and physically crowds her until she's up against the bench and has no where to go. He does not take No for an answer. Again.

He kept going, leaning forward at a dangerous angle to cage her in with his arms. "Dummy won't open that door until I say so. You'll listen sooner or later."

Tony disregards her explicit wishes again. Cages her in with his arms. Then he tells her that not only is there no way out, that Dummy won't let her out until Tony wishes it, that she's going to give in to him "sooner or later."

Again, given the context of the scene, this takes on connotations that I assume were not intended. Where it comes across like he's going to keep at her until she is worn down and gives in to his sexual advances. While it might not be technically rape, it's usually called coercion. The woman gives in because she feels she has no other options, and giving in is better than being raped. Whether or not she has feelings for him is not the point here; she did not wish to have sexual contact with him at that time and place, and he disregards that repeatedly and with force. Not only disregards it, but continues the contact, and tries to tell her eventually she'll do what he wishes.

That's how this scene reads. Regardless of the romantic bit that follows.

He was so close, and he smelled so good. Pepper felt her anger shift, making way for recklessness, and it occurred to her that all the reasoning that had held her back didn't apply.

So Pepper regains her agency a bit and turns the tables on him. Good for her. To me, this still does not read as her having power over him, because it doesn't erase anything that's happened before it. In fact, everything that happened before colors everything that happens next, no matter how consenting she is.

Pepper looked straight into Tony's eyes, seeing the same rush she was riding and betting that he hadn't gotten around to updating things. "Jarvis," she said sweetly, "implement protocol Gimmel Five."

"Acknowleged," Jarvis replied, and Tony's jaw dropped.

"Pepper, you bitch!"

This is particularly ugly given what immediately preceded it. So, Pepper takes control of the situation and Tony calls her a bitch for it. She secures a way out if she so chooses, and he calls her one of the most gendered insults there is, perhaps under "cunt," but no less powerful, especially in this context. She turns him down repeatedly, she makes sure she can leave, and he calls her a bitch for it.

Again, this colors everything that follows, to me, just as it is colored by everything that led up to it. It's not just an insult in anger, in the midst of an argument. It's uttered in the context of her thwarting his desire to have her, right there in the sauna, whether she's willing or not. That's how it reads to me.

Part VI

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

There's a perfectly fine sex scene: again, my problem is not with the sex, which is obviously consensual. But I do still see hints of creepy when it changes back to Tony's POV.

Now, this bit is fairly typical in romance and in fanfic, so your mileage may vary. But again, context is key:

Mine.

That was all he could think...

Not letting you go away again.

His lover might have a different opinion, but in this case Tony was not going to be moved. No matter what it took, he was keeping her, and she him. It was just that simple, he told himself.

Given everything that came before, this rings as abusive and stalkerish. Her wishes are not only not taken into account (pretty much ever, apparently), they are outright denied. Pepper might have a different opinion as to whether she was his, whether she was going to go away from him... but Tony doesn't give a damn what Pepper's desires are. No matter what it took, he was keeping her. Tony's thoughts aren't about a mutual relationship, they're about ownership.


I think the key to why this story bothered me is that it's assumed that because the reader knows that Pepper has some interest in him, that Tony's actions are okay. The problem is, Tony is not aware of Pepper's feelings. The problem is that Pepper repeatedly expresses her disinterest in the sexual encounter, in having physical contact with him, and he repeatedly ignores it. The problem is, regardless of whether or not she is interested in him sexually, she's portrayed as not interested in having sexual contact with him at that time and place, and people are arguing that his physically manhandling her in that scene despite her protests and fighting back are okay because she's attracted to him too.

This rings of date rape, and the denial of it. This rings of marital rape, and the denial of it: just because she might love him, might be attracted to him, doesn't give him the right to force himself on her against her wishes. The defenses of this from commenters have all been from Tony's POV: what Tony intended, that Tony would never harm Pepper. The scene in question, however, is from Pepper's POV: and she's written as angry, panicked, and struggling. Tony's intentions are irrelevant. Pepper's jealousy is irrelevant. What's relevant is the actions of both of the characters.

No means no. I don't care how attracted to him she was, how much she wanted him; at that point she'd said no, and he ignored it. Women's rape accusations are tossed out all the time because "she clearly wanted it." That's how this plays, to me. The romanticizing of it really bothers me. It feeds into these insidious ideas about men and women and what's acceptable. It feeds into myths about rape.

There is an undercurrent of our culture that says that even after a woman says no to a sexual advance, if you push her hard enough she's eventually get to yes. The pushing doesn't have to be with violence. It can be through coercion, through "wearing her down," through making sure she can't leave if she wants to do so. In your story, Tony does this, and even gloats about it. Now, he doesn't know Pepper can override Jarvis. In his mind, he's got her right where he wants her, and she can't leave. "You'll listen sooner or later."

Pepper trusts Tony up to this point. He betrays that trust. He physically overpowers her against her will. He ignores her vocal requests to stop and back off. He does not let up until she hurts him physically. And then when she turns the tables on him and secures a way out, he calls her a bitch.

And then it ends happily ever after. Yeah, that's probably the part that bothers me the most. Because it excuses everything that came before. Tony's assault was justified because it pushed her beyond Pepper's silly hangups, pushed her beyond her "rules" and cemented their fated love. That's how it reads to me, and that's why I found it disturbing.

Re: Part VI

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Thank you for thinking this over so carefully, and taking the time to reply! I appreciate you coming here to do it, especially when others apparently don't feel the same.

I understand your argument, I want to say that first off. It makes sense. I'm aware of some of the cultural aspects of assault and sexuality, though it's not a topic I've engaged on in any depth.

I would still argue that Pepper knows more about Tony than you're implying, given the way they flirted during the film. And I am still uncomfortable about labeling his hug as sexual assault. The chasing her would qualify, yes, and I'm starting to regret going for the "bitch" line, though I don't see that word as quite so loaded. But the interpretation of assault seems too broad to me.

(The tantrum line is taken from my own experience--just meant to express frustration. Some people evoke the desire to scream at them, even if it won't help the situation.)

I think you've got a valid argument, and I agree with you about society in general. I guess I'm going to have to say that I see how it applies to my story, but I consider it a...hmm...off-angled view. Though again, different people have different interpretations, and I'm not saying yours is invalid!

Maybe I didn't express it properly, maybe I used the wrong words, but in my head, it's a fight, not attempted rape. In my head, Pepper may be angry at Tony, but she knows that he wouldn't go that far. Yes, if he were behaving perfectly he should have stopped the instant she said something, but he was distracted. Not ignoring her, not deliberately refusing her choices, just too caught up in his own mind to hear her for a few seconds. Which is a mistake anyone can make, I think.

No doubt I'm being incredibly frustrating myself. And I promise you I will think carefully about this sort of situation in any future story, because as you say, there is a wider context.

I also want to thank you again for explaining your viewpoint (multiple times *grin*) and for being patient and courteous. I've learned a great deal from this whole discussion, all the different views, and I hope I'll be a better writer for the learning.

If this seems too short, well, I'm not good at arguing myself--and it took me half an hour to phrase. :P

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

First of all--

I liked the story. And I told you so. :)

That being said, amonitrate brought to a head some of the things that were going on in my subconscious as I was reading it that bothered me. Okay, she just said No. And then he...did he just do that? Really? And he called her a bitch? Waitaminute... And then right after that it got sublimated into UNF and my brain dribbled out my ears.

What's interesting is, as writers, getting into POV and how that can make or break something like this. Maybe if you'd kept it in Tony's POV the entire time, it wouldn't have been quite as problematic--it could have just read as Tony being clueless about signals or something rather than Pepper really trying hard to repel him (or at least not encourage him) and failing rather miserably because her own feelings on the matter are...complicated.

Which isn't to say that you shouldn't have written it the way you did; I totally get why you did what you did. However, you do have some squicky consent issues in there that you might not have been aware of--and it might be interesting to do a follow-up fic wherein some of that is possibly dealt with? But I did find myself kind of going "whoa, this is a little darker than VR usually does" while reading it.

Thank you for opening this up for discussion. You made me have thinky thoughts not only about your story, but about some of the deeper issues in the one I'm wrestling with right now.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Yes you did, and I appreciate it! :D

Oddly enough, I originally was going to do it all from Tony's POV; I switched to double when I realized I had something I really wanted to express from Pepper's viewpoint. Huh.

Most of what I wanted to say I said in my reply to amonitrate above, so I won't repeat it here. But thank you for joining in the discussion! I certainly wasn't expecting quite this response, but I'm glad that people felt free to speak up.

Er...I feel clueless, but mind if I ask what UNF stands for?

[cabooklover.livejournal.com]

Wow, there are some interesting takes on your fic.

For me, the bottom line is this: Pepper grabbed his hair and kissed him, and didn't bother to be gentle.

She kissed HIM. They were still fighting but they were absolutely equals in that scene.

I think it's great and I didn't see it as assualt. Pepper gave as good as she got. He hugged her and wouldn't let go, but Pepper got him to let go. I see two strong people going back and forth here.

Does that make sense?

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Since that's what I thought when I wrote it, yep, makes sense to me! :D The hug and the subsequent smut seem to be two different issues, and people have made some excellent points; I stand by my story, but I've learned something too, which is really a pretty good day when one gets down to it.

Thanks for commenting! I'm glad that people saw it as I did also.

[saourise.livejournal.com]

Hey, wow you probably have moved on by now, but I just got to read this all and want to respond as well, if you don't mind.
English is not my mother tongue, so please bear with me here :)

First of all the conflict here is what got me a link to the story in the first place, so I'm grateful, and I really enjoyed myself.
But after reading all this I'm even more happy to have stumbled upon this post. I love how simple act of sharing your fantasy about Tony/Pepper in a fan fiction can initiate such a deep discussion about writing and its unconscious meanings.

About the subject in hand:
While reading your story (which I did first of all, before reading the break-down of amonitrate) I enjoyed it, it had nice Tony/Pepper dynamics and likely plot. I didn't like that he called her a bitch, for example, it stung in my ears, but overall it's a nice description of a fantasy about how Tony and Pepper finally get together - with Tony in the lead, which is not new concept to Pepperony fics.

After reading the break down, while I agree with many things in it (I just love this analysis, cause it's backed-up with so many examples throughout the story) - I don't think less of your story at all. It kinda made me like it more, knowing that there are some darker meanings that can me found in it.

It's always been clear that Tony is really self-centered, and being a key figure in his multi-billion corporation truly must've made an impact upon his behavior when he's being denied something he wants. His disregard others' wishes, especially women, is clearly a result of all his past experiences with women - they sought him out to bed him (well, mostly be seduced and bedded by him) - well of course for years he felt like a desirable prize, and as such isn't used to consideration.

I don't think that this behavioral pattern can be changed that fast, even if he'd had his eyes open and really loves Pepper - it's still going to take time. He needs to learn to behave differently, and leaning always takes time.
I think it's only natural that he acts the way he does, even if it suggests mild "stalkiness" and a bit of abusiveness.
The story clearly shows his affection to her, and frankly there are more aggressive ways to seduce someone who seems unwilling, without making it a date-rape... and Tony is an expert, I believe.

Yeah, maybe we all are part of a society that is still too forgiving to abusive men, but it's only fan fiction. And this story actually make sense even with this analysis in mind.

Whether or not we must seek to educate and keeping it "politically correct" even when we write fan-fiction is another discussion altogether, even more hard than the discussion above. :)

I only hope that you'll find amonitrate's analysis as somewhat constructive criticism, and it'll only improve your work. Exploring characters is pretty much the fun part of fiction, plot or not :)

So thanks for the fiction, you're a great writer. I have some of your stories in the favorite list on ff.net, and I re-read them occasionally.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks for the note! :D I don't mind at all.

First off, I'm glad you enjoyed this one. I never expected quite the reaction it generated, but people were courteous to one another in the ensuing discussion, and that was the most important thing to me. And it made me think.

I agree with you, actually. To me Tony's actions were based on his personality, which IS self-centered. He's not perfect, and Pepper knows his flaws and is apparently willing to accept them or at least work around them, or she wouldn't still be there. Nor is she perfect herself, and human beings and their reactions are enormously complicated.

Part of the question, I think (after some long reflection), was should we portray these things in our stories? They may be valid character interpretations, but having Tony err and Pepper forgive could be a way of furthering the unacceptable societal status quo.

amonitrate and others made some excellent points. I don't agree with all of them, but it has made me pay closer attention to what I write, which is a good thing. I changed a scene or two in Green Laurel because of this discussion, for instance.

I still regret the "bitch" in retrospect; clearly it's a trigger word for many folks. It isn't for me, there are words I think are much worse, and I know some women use it as an empowering term, but language is complicated... :P

BTW, your written English is much more fluent than many native speakers'. As someone who has tried to learn other languages without success, I'm jealous!

[(Anonymous)]

I thought that this was perfectly in character for both of them - I'm glad you didn't label it 'OOC' as I think that wouldn't be correct. I think 'angry sex' is kinda hot. No problem with it. '