Hmmm.

[vr_trakowski]

If you read Löyli, would you be willing to give me an opinion on a possibly touchy issue? 


It has been brought to my attention that the scenario I created in Löyli could be considered sexual assault. 

I am not in possession of details, so I'm not sure to which part the objection refers--Tony hugging Pepper during their argument, or the encounter afterwards.  It could be both, I suppose, though I thought I was making it clear that Pepper was entirely willing for at least the latter part. 

In my head, Tony's hug, while unwelcome, isn't sexual in nature; it's a product of his epiphany, and he doesn't let her go at first because he's too caught up in that to pay attention to her anger.  But I may not have made that clear enough.  It could also be that some definitions of sexual assault are more stringent than mine. 

Opinions?  I'd really like to know what you think; you are, after all, the people for whom these stories are written.  Did I go too far?  Did I break character?  Am I doing the characters, or the fandom, a disservice? 

Thank you. 

ETA: Wow.  I wasn't anticipating quite this response, but I'm glad to see it!  Thank you all for your honesty, and for your courtesy.  And if you came from somewhere outside the fandom, welcome, feel free to join in. 

I fully intend to respond to the new replies, but if I don't get some sleep I'm going to start hallucinating, so I'll be back tomorrow.  Please, carry on meanwhile if you are so moved; just stay courteous. 

Comments

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

I also read it as problematic. It wasn't one huge thing, but a number of little things that pushed it over a line for me, making a often enjoyable "trapped somewhere" cliche scenario (with some good character discussion in there) an issue: some of the word choices, that this was happening in Tony's space that he controlled, and he even made mention that he could keep her locked in as long as he wanted. Even if Pepper did counter that, the fact that Tony thought it okay to even consider keeping Pepper there if she wanted to leave came across poorly, especially as in some ways, Pepper still does work for Tony, even is she is the CEO (he still owns controlling share in the company). It's even said that he gave her the position. Plus, she had been his direct subordinate for a very long time, and that is still going to impact their interactions.

The thing is, it's not an either/or issue - it's not "it's rape or it's love, and there's nothing problematic in between." Sexual assault or sexual harassment doesn't have to be violent or graphic. It doesn't always come out of hate or anger. It plays on deeply ingrained dynamics, and someone who thinks they're joking can make someone else who feels in a subordinate position uncomfortable and trapped (we actually just had a situation where I work, between a faculty member and a staff member).

During the lead up to the sex scene, Pepper is described as upset, stunned, furious, almost panicked by Tony's behavior, clearly saying "No" , "Back off," clearly physically pushing him away, and taken all together it all just set up her capitulation and the eventual sex as uncomfortable and coercive for me, no matter that she did end up an active participant. She told Tony to back off while they were trapped together, and he didn't.

Even though we shippers are rooting for Tony and Pepper, even though we think they love each other and should be together, I do find issue with stories that gloss over or even romanticize the very real issues between them: Tony comes from a position of great privilege, and his expectations of how things work are very different than reality, and he has a great deal of power (social, financial, etc) in any position. And no matter how romantic, that is a big deal in a situation where you have an employer involved with a subordinate (the movie even addressed this in the balcony scene - Tony just did not get that making Pepper dance with him could impact her negatively, and did not get why that made her uncomfortable).

Anyway, thank you for bringing this up and opening it to public discussion. Like amonitrate said, that can't have been easy, and I really admire you for it, and I hope this made sense.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks for being honest and thorough! I do appreciate it.

I see what you're saying (if you'll forgive the hackneyed phrase), and you make excellent points. Tony DOES have a lot of power, still, and he's used to wielding it. But, I would contend, Pepper has power too in this situation--demonstrably.

In addition, in this specific situation, they're arguing. What either of them might say in the heat of anger doesn't necessarily translate into action. But that may not come across clearly, in which case it's a failure on my part.

How much power DOES Pepper have, now that they're no longer in a direct employer-employee relationship? Is public perception as big a factor?

Perhaps we just perceive them differently.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

some of the word choices, that this was happening in Tony's space that he controlled, and he even made mention that he could keep her locked in as long as he wanted. Even if Pepper did counter that, the fact that Tony thought it okay to even consider keeping Pepper there if she wanted to leave came across poorly

Yes, exactly this. I'm trying to put together a coherent critique of why I felt the word choices etc were problematic. But this is it in a nutshell for me.

The thing is, it's not an either/or issue - it's not "it's rape or it's love, and there's nothing problematic in between." Sexual assault or sexual harassment doesn't have to be violent or graphic. It doesn't always come out of hate or anger. It plays on deeply ingrained dynamics

Yeah. Hence we have date rape, marital rape, and at the extreme end incest -- in all those instances, the attacker typically claims to love the victim. And maybe does, in a twisted sense. Stalkers love their victims, or claim to. The victims sometimes even love them back. Domestic violence falls into this as well. Coercion can be very difficult to interpret from the outside, and is often completely non-violent.

I think the ingrained dynamics are the key. I'll also try to explore this a bit later but it plays directly into that idea that women are unable to give meaningful consent; that no means yes, that no will turn into yes eventually if you pressure someone enough. That's what really bothered me about the fic, those underlying implications. I realized later that this is common in romance novels, that outright rape and "forced seduction" are/were integral parts of that genre in many ways, and this maybe is why the views of this story are so varying. To people not familiar with this story type from romance novels (Me, for example) it reads one way; maybe to people who have read lots of romance novels it reads as normal or even romantic? I'm not sure.

During the lead up to the sex scene, Pepper is described as upset, stunned, furious, almost panicked by Tony's behavior, clearly saying "No" , "Back off," clearly physically pushing him away, and taken all together it all just set up her capitulation and the eventual sex as uncomfortable and coercive for me, no matter that she did end up an active participant. She told Tony to back off while they were trapped together, and he didn't.

Exactly it for me. It colors her consent later for me, and soured the sex scene and the romantic ending for me.

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

It colors her consent later for me, and soured the sex
scene and the romantic ending for me.

That, exactly.

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

>>>I realized later that this is common in romance novels, that outright rape and "forced seduction" are/were integral parts of that genre in many ways, and this maybe is why the views of this story are so varying.

Interesting comments - definitely thought provoking. It's just intriguing to me because I guess I chose to process what I was reading differently than some. I didn't so much see this piece as a battle between Pepper and Tony about the nature of their relationship as I saw it being the outward expression of emotional battles that both were having with themselves... -shrugs- Yes it was edgy - but I guess I didn't find it upsetting because they both made choices and had moments they could have cried quits, but they did not. It may not have been a pretty way to begin a relationship - but it still felt believable to me, and I like the characters enough to know that ideal beginning or not, they are likely to find ways to talk it through and work it out.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

I didn't so much see this piece as a battle between Pepper and Tony about the nature of their relationship as I saw it being the outward expression of emotional battles that both were having with themselves.

I don't see this as a battle over the nature of their relationship either. I saw Tony force unwanted physical attention onto Pepper, who very blatantly told him to stop, and he didn't. Until she physically hurt him. And then he tried it again.

[(Anonymous)]

Again that's your right of interpretation - I'm not saying your view is wrong, I'm just expressing my own. I didn't find what Tony did as offsetting as you did apparently, and I still throughly enjoyed the story as a whole. VR asked for opinions so I gave her one as honestly as I could...

:)

-yawns-

-goes to feed Kaia-

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

I disagree this case is a matter of interpretation. What atrata and I have both done is merely state exactly what happens in the story. The facts of the actions. No one has disputed that this is what in fact happens in the story. In fact, no one has engaged with these facts, and have instead sidestepped the issue completely.