Hmmm.

[vr_trakowski]

If you read Löyli, would you be willing to give me an opinion on a possibly touchy issue? 


It has been brought to my attention that the scenario I created in Löyli could be considered sexual assault. 

I am not in possession of details, so I'm not sure to which part the objection refers--Tony hugging Pepper during their argument, or the encounter afterwards.  It could be both, I suppose, though I thought I was making it clear that Pepper was entirely willing for at least the latter part. 

In my head, Tony's hug, while unwelcome, isn't sexual in nature; it's a product of his epiphany, and he doesn't let her go at first because he's too caught up in that to pay attention to her anger.  But I may not have made that clear enough.  It could also be that some definitions of sexual assault are more stringent than mine. 

Opinions?  I'd really like to know what you think; you are, after all, the people for whom these stories are written.  Did I go too far?  Did I break character?  Am I doing the characters, or the fandom, a disservice? 

Thank you. 

ETA: Wow.  I wasn't anticipating quite this response, but I'm glad to see it!  Thank you all for your honesty, and for your courtesy.  And if you came from somewhere outside the fandom, welcome, feel free to join in. 

I fully intend to respond to the new replies, but if I don't get some sleep I'm going to start hallucinating, so I'll be back tomorrow.  Please, carry on meanwhile if you are so moved; just stay courteous. 

Comments

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Hello, welcome! And sorry for the delay in answering; when I can't see the keyboard clearly any more it's time to sleep. *grin*

I can agree with your definition in general. I'm not sure how closely it applies in this particular situation (in my head, anyway) given these characters and how they know each other, and the sheer complexity of human relationships. But I can also accept the viewpoint.

If the situation were reversed, emotionally, would you consider it harassment? Same set-up, Pepper hugging Tony and him trying to make her stop? I'm not trying to be confrontational; I am genuinely curious, I promise.

[atrata.livejournal.com]

What definition? I repeated what happened in the story and said I would label that sexual harassment. Do you disagree with what I feel happened in the story? I mean, at the end of the day, my stance is that I don't care what Tony was thinking or how much Pepper wanted it or how awesome her orgasm was. He grabbed her, she told him to stop, he did not. That's not unclear or under debate. No one is arguing that didn't happen; what seems to be being argued is that "Tony would never..." and I think that's a very dangerous slippery slope, and also irrelevant, because Tony did.

But as to your question: Yes, I would still see that as harassment. If she's trying to force him to do something he doesn't want to do (as far as she knows), and then he tells her to stop and has to resort to physically hurting her to get her to do so, then yes. It's a bit different because there's still a power imbalance between them, but it's still harassment.

[One of the reasons I'm here in your post, actually, is that I prefer complicated messy stories with elements of power imbalance and coercion and fuzzy consent. That's my thing. So understand that when I say I see consent issues in this story, I'm not saying that's a bad thing or trying to get judgy. It's just that I feel stories with consent issues need to be acknowledged as such by the writer, and if the writer doesn't see them, I find it troubling.]

[edited for grammar.]

[4persephone.livejournal.com]

If Tony was guilty of sexually harssing Pepper in this story do you believe that she in turn was also sexually harassing him with her cracks about him and Natasha's perceived 'relationship?' Because if sexual connotation was inappropriate to their power dynamic, then wouldn't it be fair to state she also chose to use his past and present choices as a way to delibertly emotionally harm HIM?

[atrata.livejournal.com]

"Sexual connotation"?

He was wearing a towel, pressing his erection up against Pepper, and not letting go of her despite her repeated requests that he do so. That's not a "connotation."

Beyond that, I reject your question. Yes, she was trying to hurt him with words. I do not care. That is not the point. If I say something mean to someone, I do not expect to get grabbed and then not be let go when I say to let me go.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

It's just that I feel stories with consent issues need to be acknowledged as such by the writer, and if the writer doesn't see them, I find it troubling.

This is a really good point and something I was struggling to articulate. That exactly. I love messy, complicated, even dark relationship fic myself; but only when the author acknowledges how messed up it is, you know? If it's played as romantic and acceptable behavior, that starts to get creepy, and not in a good way. Because then it plays into existing power imbalances between men and women in society, where women are supposed to sexually submit to men despite their own feelings about it (and not in the fun BDSM way) and men expect women to submit, expect that they deserve sex from any woman they're attracted to.

Which in extreme brings on that guy who shot those women in PA because he couldn't bed an eighteen year old.

I'm not saying this story directly contributes to that kind of thing, I'm just saying everything we write has a wider context, and that horrible crime and the icky guys defending it have been on my mind, and it's hard not to see some of those elements in the subtext to this story.

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Thanks for answering my question!

Okay, I see what you're saying about Tony grabbing Pepper. What I don't agree with is that he's ignoring her. I may not have expressed it properly, but in my head (as I said elsewhere to amonitrate) he's just distracted. He doesn't really hear her for a few seconds; it's not deliberate. Whether that changes anything...I guess that's up to the reader.

Heh, obviously I didn't feel there were consent issues originally! Now I'm taking another look.

Thanks for your replies--I appreciate you diving in!

[atrata.livejournal.com]

Heh. Thanks for having this discussion! I can't imagine that it's been easy for you. :)

But in terms of him ignoring her vs being distracted... yeah, you're probably right that it wasn't expressed properly. That part is written from Pepper's POV. She doesn't know he's distracted. We don't know he's distracted. Maybe he doesn't hear her at first, but she shoves him and she bites him and then he absolutely hears her, because he responds to what she says. With "not on your life." And he still doesn't let her go. (He doesn't, for example, let her go and say, "shit, sorry, I was distracted.")

Anyway! Seriously, I think you've been very gracious about this whole thing. Mad props, regardless of whether we agree about this. :)