Hmmm.

[vr_trakowski]

If you read Löyli, would you be willing to give me an opinion on a possibly touchy issue? 


It has been brought to my attention that the scenario I created in Löyli could be considered sexual assault. 

I am not in possession of details, so I'm not sure to which part the objection refers--Tony hugging Pepper during their argument, or the encounter afterwards.  It could be both, I suppose, though I thought I was making it clear that Pepper was entirely willing for at least the latter part. 

In my head, Tony's hug, while unwelcome, isn't sexual in nature; it's a product of his epiphany, and he doesn't let her go at first because he's too caught up in that to pay attention to her anger.  But I may not have made that clear enough.  It could also be that some definitions of sexual assault are more stringent than mine. 

Opinions?  I'd really like to know what you think; you are, after all, the people for whom these stories are written.  Did I go too far?  Did I break character?  Am I doing the characters, or the fandom, a disservice? 

Thank you. 

ETA: Wow.  I wasn't anticipating quite this response, but I'm glad to see it!  Thank you all for your honesty, and for your courtesy.  And if you came from somewhere outside the fandom, welcome, feel free to join in. 

I fully intend to respond to the new replies, but if I don't get some sleep I'm going to start hallucinating, so I'll be back tomorrow.  Please, carry on meanwhile if you are so moved; just stay courteous. 

Comments

Part VI

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

There's a perfectly fine sex scene: again, my problem is not with the sex, which is obviously consensual. But I do still see hints of creepy when it changes back to Tony's POV.

Now, this bit is fairly typical in romance and in fanfic, so your mileage may vary. But again, context is key:

Mine.

That was all he could think...

Not letting you go away again.

His lover might have a different opinion, but in this case Tony was not going to be moved. No matter what it took, he was keeping her, and she him. It was just that simple, he told himself.

Given everything that came before, this rings as abusive and stalkerish. Her wishes are not only not taken into account (pretty much ever, apparently), they are outright denied. Pepper might have a different opinion as to whether she was his, whether she was going to go away from him... but Tony doesn't give a damn what Pepper's desires are. No matter what it took, he was keeping her. Tony's thoughts aren't about a mutual relationship, they're about ownership.


I think the key to why this story bothered me is that it's assumed that because the reader knows that Pepper has some interest in him, that Tony's actions are okay. The problem is, Tony is not aware of Pepper's feelings. The problem is that Pepper repeatedly expresses her disinterest in the sexual encounter, in having physical contact with him, and he repeatedly ignores it. The problem is, regardless of whether or not she is interested in him sexually, she's portrayed as not interested in having sexual contact with him at that time and place, and people are arguing that his physically manhandling her in that scene despite her protests and fighting back are okay because she's attracted to him too.

This rings of date rape, and the denial of it. This rings of marital rape, and the denial of it: just because she might love him, might be attracted to him, doesn't give him the right to force himself on her against her wishes. The defenses of this from commenters have all been from Tony's POV: what Tony intended, that Tony would never harm Pepper. The scene in question, however, is from Pepper's POV: and she's written as angry, panicked, and struggling. Tony's intentions are irrelevant. Pepper's jealousy is irrelevant. What's relevant is the actions of both of the characters.

No means no. I don't care how attracted to him she was, how much she wanted him; at that point she'd said no, and he ignored it. Women's rape accusations are tossed out all the time because "she clearly wanted it." That's how this plays, to me. The romanticizing of it really bothers me. It feeds into these insidious ideas about men and women and what's acceptable. It feeds into myths about rape.

There is an undercurrent of our culture that says that even after a woman says no to a sexual advance, if you push her hard enough she's eventually get to yes. The pushing doesn't have to be with violence. It can be through coercion, through "wearing her down," through making sure she can't leave if she wants to do so. In your story, Tony does this, and even gloats about it. Now, he doesn't know Pepper can override Jarvis. In his mind, he's got her right where he wants her, and she can't leave. "You'll listen sooner or later."

Pepper trusts Tony up to this point. He betrays that trust. He physically overpowers her against her will. He ignores her vocal requests to stop and back off. He does not let up until she hurts him physically. And then when she turns the tables on him and secures a way out, he calls her a bitch.

And then it ends happily ever after. Yeah, that's probably the part that bothers me the most. Because it excuses everything that came before. Tony's assault was justified because it pushed her beyond Pepper's silly hangups, pushed her beyond her "rules" and cemented their fated love. That's how it reads to me, and that's why I found it disturbing.

Re: Part VI

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

Thank you for thinking this over so carefully, and taking the time to reply! I appreciate you coming here to do it, especially when others apparently don't feel the same.

I understand your argument, I want to say that first off. It makes sense. I'm aware of some of the cultural aspects of assault and sexuality, though it's not a topic I've engaged on in any depth.

I would still argue that Pepper knows more about Tony than you're implying, given the way they flirted during the film. And I am still uncomfortable about labeling his hug as sexual assault. The chasing her would qualify, yes, and I'm starting to regret going for the "bitch" line, though I don't see that word as quite so loaded. But the interpretation of assault seems too broad to me.

(The tantrum line is taken from my own experience--just meant to express frustration. Some people evoke the desire to scream at them, even if it won't help the situation.)

I think you've got a valid argument, and I agree with you about society in general. I guess I'm going to have to say that I see how it applies to my story, but I consider it a...hmm...off-angled view. Though again, different people have different interpretations, and I'm not saying yours is invalid!

Maybe I didn't express it properly, maybe I used the wrong words, but in my head, it's a fight, not attempted rape. In my head, Pepper may be angry at Tony, but she knows that he wouldn't go that far. Yes, if he were behaving perfectly he should have stopped the instant she said something, but he was distracted. Not ignoring her, not deliberately refusing her choices, just too caught up in his own mind to hear her for a few seconds. Which is a mistake anyone can make, I think.

No doubt I'm being incredibly frustrating myself. And I promise you I will think carefully about this sort of situation in any future story, because as you say, there is a wider context.

I also want to thank you again for explaining your viewpoint (multiple times *grin*) and for being patient and courteous. I've learned a great deal from this whole discussion, all the different views, and I hope I'll be a better writer for the learning.

If this seems too short, well, I'm not good at arguing myself--and it took me half an hour to phrase. :P

Re: Part VI

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

No, not frustrating, I appreciate your accepting this critique so gracefully, like I said. It can't be an easy thing to read.

Maybe I didn't express it properly, maybe I used the wrong words, but in my head, it's a fight, not attempted rape. In my head, Pepper may be angry at Tony, but she knows that he wouldn't go that far. Yes, if he were behaving perfectly he should have stopped the instant she said something, but he was distracted. Not ignoring her, not deliberately refusing her choices, just too caught up in his own mind to hear her for a few seconds. Which is a mistake anyone can make, I think.


I understand your intent as author, but in my opinion, that's not how the scene comes across.

Re: Part VI

[vr-trakowski.livejournal.com]

P.S. I'm itching to read your "cheeseburger" story, BTW! You keep HINTING.

Re: Part VI

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

hee. Thanks! it's being betaed and I'll probably be revising it this week!